| Editorial
RF 002 BELLY DANCING VS RENAISSANCE FAIRE At our last faire here in Las Vegas {"Age of Chivalry" 2004} we set up a very large Belly Dance Guild encampment complete with out own very pretty and period looking stage. We had a huge feast hall appropriately decorated. Our camp as always is as authentic as we can make it, so are our members. The public loved it, the organizers loved it and for over 7 years we have provided our stage free of charge to any group wishing to perform. But after the event, there was a flurry of letter writing on our local Belly Dance board. I will not go into details as to the content however it has prompted me to write this editorial, mostly in an attempt to provide information to those who may not understand what we do at a Faire or similar event. While Belly Dancers and Arab Personas have been introduced to many Renaissance Faires {we have yet to find when this first occured) and most re-creation groups have Arabic personas and Dancers in their membership, this is not really historically correct. While Arabic culture did influence and permeate into European culture, Belly Dancers certainly did not perform across Europe. That having been said it is in our Guild's interest to offer evidence to support this activity at Faires. See here for a wonderful discussion on this matter from one of the Renaissance History boards. Much has been said about the valididity of this or that form of dance being appropriate at Faires. Barring public indecency a case can be made for all forms of the dance. The Ethnic and Tribal dances of the Berber tribesmen and other tribes across the Middle east, while certainly period to the times and arguably the most respectful forms, would most certainly never have been on display in Europe and very few Europeans would have had opportunity to see such dances. At the other end of the spectrum you have the Harem dancers. Again few Europeans would have been invited to these dances, unless perhaps they had incurred favor from a Pasha or such, but one has only to look at the art left to us by the Old Masters that clearly show that Europeans were aware of such dancers. But did they perform in Europe? Were they part of main stream Medieval or Renaissance culture? Not likely. Now in regions that were heavily influenced by Arabic, Moroccan and African cultures, like the Moorish times of Spain, there would most certainly have been dancers that the public could see. We are gathering any info on this to add to our historical documentation. If you have any comments, corrections ar additions please feel free to write us at editorial@standauffish.net It has been said that Gypsie Style Dancing is not appropriate at Renaissance Faires... I find this comment very amusing, though sad at the same time. Gypsies have been around since... well forever as best as we can determine... and they MOST CERTAINLY permiated European society. And it is well known that the women would dance for the entertainment of men, while their husbands, boyfriends and sons would be cutting the purse of the entranced spectators {hense the term cutpurse that is still associated with the Gypsy today} Gypsie encampments were all over Europe, and girls dancing around the camp fires was both common and period. Finally this is a personal comment. After our faire last year {"Age of Chivalry" 2004} I heard comments that was very disturbing: "Belly dance was started by women, for women in the Arab world over a millennia ago. This is a dance that was passed from mother to daughter, and from sister to sister. To this day, dance is a way of life in the Arab world. They do not learn in classes or workshops, they learn from watching their mothers, grandmothers, aunts, cousins and sisters. Even though we are dancing in the year 2004, far from any Bedouin tent or Ottoman harem we should do our best to honor the culture and the spirit that started this dance. I think we (and I'm including myself here) failed miserably in this at the recent fair." While I value the right of anyone to have an opinion I feel that this line of thinking first assumes that ALL the dancers at Ren Faire are trying to reenact dancing from any "Bedouin tent or Ottoman harem". It seems to imply that all other forms of dance are somehow wrong and/or disrespectful. I am sure most people would agree that over the years there have been many types of Dance either recreated or new styles created by women in the American World, for women in the American World and while many modern styles may be based on Arabic style, there are many new and truly "our own" art forms in the world of dance. I do believe I have heard the term "American Tribal Fusion" circulating out there. We even have "Flamenco/Bellydance Fusion" here in Vegas {with the Moorish connection between Spain and Morroco in the 1500's I could make a really STRONG historical case for that form.} I am also quite sure that more than one dance from Morroco to Istanbul, whether in a Shieks tent or Ottoman Harem, was performed for the enjoyment and entertainment of men. We have had several troupes on our stage over the years that have developed a very unique and interesting style, though one might not call it "true belly dancing" They performed well and had fun, and the audience loved them. The Isle will defend anyones right to perform what they wish on our stage, as long as it does not offend public decency. Our stage is free to all who wish to avail themselves of a chance to perform in public. The following letters from a major Renaissance discussion board are well worth reading as they deal quite well with this subject. In keeping with our goals and ideas we welcome any additions, ideas and comments on this editorial. You can mail them to editorial@standauffish.net. As we have sent this document to many web mailing lists PLEASE RESPOND DIRECTLY TO US and not to the board where you came across this topic. Omar Kharim Ali Allah Akbar
Live the Dream
The opinions expressed here are those of the management but do reflect the views of the majority of our membership. In Reply to a recent Post on a Renaissance Board Regarding Belly Dancers at Renaissance Faires {East Meets West Faire} Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire My 2 cents... Lose the bellydancers. They are not Renaissance, and don't match
with a Celtic theme either. I know the guys like to see the jiggly babes,
but it is hokey.
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire >Re: My 2 cents... >>Lose the bellydancers. They are not Renaissance, I know a few dancers who would object to that statement The one & only Violet Tigress
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire Miss Kitty, There are MANY people who would object to my statement, you are quite correct.. I am unfortunately in the minority who are realizant that there is an overabundance of bellydancers at many faires - not even close to a recreation of the renaissance era. After all, isn't that what a guild is supposed to do? SOME very few troupes do portray an accurate Morrocan or MiddleEastern or Gypsy ... with period correct costumes and all. But, Morrocan and Middle Eastern types did NOT really permeate European or English society in that time frame. Worse and worse, lots of them dress in modern costume. It is not period to wear coin or chain belts and bras, see through fabric and such.. That is cabaret style belly dancing and definitely modern. That's why they are called "Jingle Babes". I'd love to see the Roman Morga Gypsies up there doing their thing... There actually were Gypsies roaming around Europe and England in the Renaissance. Unpopular, yes - but that's why it was MY 2 cents..
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire Ah, it may be hokey (and "belly dancing" may be a 19th century Worlds Fair invention) but it gets people in the gates... Besides... it's not all "nonperiod" after all... a lot of what I've seen at faires that's called "belly dancing" is actually more in the line of traditional Middle Eastern, Spanish, Basque, and Gypsy styles... just with the wrong costuming on... Here's the problem... if you call it "Traditional Basque Dance" folks won't know what it is, and won't be interested, but if you call it "Belly Dance", it's a frame of referance they understand, and it opens the possibilities to education... But... what do I know? I'm working on two hours sleep in the last three days... Rev Warflight the Wrong
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire SOME very few troupes do portray an accurate Morrocan or MiddleEastern or Gypsy ... with period correct costumes and all. But, Morrocan and Middle Eastern types did NOT really permeate European or English society in that time frame. Tribe Roman Morga are Hungarian Bosque gypsies. Oh, and are you forgetting the Spanish Gypsies? Where do you think Flamenco dancing came from? Both those nationalities are VERY European. Laura,
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire >> SOME very few troupes do portray an accurate Morrocan or MiddleEastern or Gypsy ... Someone gave me a soapbox..thank you >>soapbox rant on<<<
Lets take the gypsies first. They were scattered throughout the whole
of the Continent and England from the 11th C onward. They so permeated
the society that no one to this day wants anything to do with them. They've
danced, loved, cheated and stolen their way from one country to the next,
have been written about, drawn and painted
Morrocans have also permeated European society. The market places of Venice, Livorno and Genoa are filled with their slaves, so much so that a Pope took one for his mistress who produced the first black political power in Europe Alessandro de Medici, Duke of Florence. The Emperor Charles the V(who's daughter Alessandro married), undertook an expedition of conquest to North Africa because they had made their presence and military might so well known to the Europeans. The remnants of the Moroccan/Arab Caliphates in Spain remained there until finally expelled in the 1590's early 1600's! The whole while they permeated the Spanish culture throughly from architecture, music, art, poetry and dress styles to military tactics and armed military uprisings and revolts throughout the reign of Phillip II. As for England, her most famous sea captains, Drake and Hawkins particularly,
permeated England forever with the Moroccans and North Africans through
their exploitation of the buying, selling and
Elizabeth also, had political and trade ties with the Moroccans, Turks and Barbary Coast Corsairs sending and receiving ambassadors from all three. She also wrote laws against gypsies just as her father had done. So basically, they permeated European and English society pretty well, where they all dancing in the streets and taverns of england? No But did people know about them? Yes. Also, please try to remember these folks are having a Medieval (not english renaissance) and Middle Eastern themed event so, the period they are considering is an extremly good one to blend these elements together. As he mentioned Aragon and Castile have just reconqured Spain from the Moors who had been living there for a few centuries so it works for what they wanna do. >>soapbox rant off<< Sheesh those things are wobbly! :) From Laura
Do you mean Basque here? If so, then they (the Basque) would only have been in Hungary since the 1930's as the Basque people are indeginous to Spain and its borders with France. Pax "Renaissance does not mean English" Smith
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire >>Do you mean Basque here? If so, then they(the Basque) would only
have
I could be mistaken about them being Basque (or my wonderful spelling
of
Basque, as a few of them portray the lighter-haired Hungarian gypsies
of my
BTW, the rest of your response, Pax.....very well said. Laura,
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire > Actually, according to one of the Roman Morgan Gypsies at Escondido,
he
Well, according to Scott and Shirley, they are Hungarian. Eh....so they interbred. Like THAT never happens! Laura (who was stolen by gypsies.....ask my Russian sister, Olga.)
Re: [Renaissance Faires] Jingle Babes at Las Vegas Renfaire Hmm... if I'm not mistaken (and I probably am) weren't the Hungarian Gypsies of Romany decent? Rev Warflight the Wrong
Gysies, Morocans, and Arabs - oh my! ADVERTISEMENT
2. Never said that gypsies did not permeate society. Said that Morrocans
and Middle Easterns did not. Probably mis-spoke as you are not the only
one who mistook my meaning on that, sorry! As most folks know there have
been
3. Slaves aside, that does not (in my mind) mean that there were Morrocans and Arabic peoples in regular society (as in permeate, as in dancing in the street). Morrocans in Spain? yes, they lived there from the Moorish times. Arabs? yes - in Spain again but in fewer numbers.. remember that they too were persecuted as heretics and being run out by the Catholic Queen Isabella. See? I knew this would be unpopular!
Gysies, Morocans, and Arabs - oh my! >> 1. You are welcome to the soapbox! :-)< Why thank you! :) >>>> 2. Never said that gypsies did not permeate society. Said that Morrocans and Middle Easterns did not. Probably mis-spoke as you are not the only one who mistook my meaning on that, sorry! As most folks know there have been Gypsies on this earth forever..<< Ah okay will we'll leave the gypsies out of this then. The other
aspects of #2 however, can clearly be seen if you look at
When I look at art by breughel, holbien, Titian, raphael, michaelangelo
etc. and see portraits, busts and bronzes of blacks and
>>>> 3. Slaves aside, that does not (in my mind) mean that there were Morrocans and Arabic peoples in regular society (as in permeate, as in dancing in the street). Morrocans in Spain? yes, they lived there from the Moorish times. Arabs? yes - in Spain again but in fewer numbers.. remember that they too were persecuted as heretics and being run out by the Catholic Queen<< Slavery is one of the most profound permeations there is! It affects
commerce and domestic labor, it reaches into the very fabric of regular
society. If you have slaves you have to have someone who maintains them,
buys them and puts them to work and that reaches all aspects of society.
In your last posting you stated that in your book the Trachtenburg, there
were pictures of Moriscos dancing and playing instruments in the streets
thats pretty darn permeated if they were
When Charlemagne goes riding over the Pyrenees with his faithful Paladins to speak with the Caliphs of Spain thats influence! Now your statement ""Morrocans in Spain? yes, they lived there from the Moorish times. Arabs? yes - in Spain again but in fewer numbers.. remember that they too were persecuted as heretics and being run out by the Catholic Queen"" To begin, the majority of those who where in charge of, and populated
Spain during it's "moorish" period were in fact Arabs. While there were
a good many of the Moroccan and north african tribesman who flowed in and
out of spain during the Arab occupation it's Caliphates and primary population
were distinctly Arab. Their influence and contributions to Spain and the
Navarre region of France still linger to this day. And they(the Arabs)
got conqured in return and told they could leave peacefully or remain under
the new Christian regime, alot left, many hundred thousands stayed some
of those converted to
Bouncing back to the Renaissance the King of France handing the Port
city of Nice( i think thats right), to Khaier-ed-din-Barabarossa and about
5000 Turkish Janiessaries profoundly permeated that French city as they
danced through the streets and partied their Fez's off. The facts are there,
if you look for them. There is a great deal of
>> See? I knew this would be unpopular!<< Well, people enjoy watching belly dancing it's inticing, sexy and
slightly tabooish, and while it's definitly not english it is
Pax Smith
Gysies, Morocans, and Arabs - oh my! >Arabs? yes - in Spain again but in fewer numbers.. remember that
they too
Unpopular? Not at all. When you write 'Arabs' shall I presume you mean 'Arab Moslems'? If yes, then Catholic Queen Isabella did not persecute the Arab Moslems. It was war. The Arab Moslems conquored Spain by force of arms. The Spanish Catholics re-conquored Spain by force of arms. Also, the Arab Moslems would not be considered 'heritics'. Correct me if I am wrong (and in this group, being corrected is a gesture of affection) a 'heritic' is a member of a faith, whom, in time, adheres to various teachings contrary to that particular faith, usually while claiming to be the 'true' believer of that particular faith. I believe a more appropriate term, in place of 'heritic' would be 'infidels'. Olde Richard
Gysies, Morocans, and Arabs - oh my! Olde Richard: > I believe a more appropriate term, in place of 'heritic' would be 'infidels'. I thought the Moslems called Christians 'infidels'.. hmm.. so if it is not heretic, perhaps it is heathen I am looking for?
What is the term for systematically forcing conversion or death on a group
of people of a different faith?
Gysies, Morocans, and Arabs - oh my! > I thought the Moslems called Christians 'infidels'.. hmm.. It worked both ways...
Rev Warflight the Wrong
Dancing at Ren faire I too have pics of Morrocans dancing in a PRIMARY source book. Everyday
Dress of the Renaissance by Kristof Weiditz. He went to Spain for a while
and drew pics of his travels in the 1530s.. Somehow, none of the dancers
I
So either the majority of dancers we have doing the re-enactment are NOT period correct or ?? I suspect that many of the 'tribal' dancers are doing Bedouin type stuff, which was NOT found in Europe. Martina Livingston
Dancing at Ren faire Well, as a fellow dancer and historical interpreter, I can appreciate
some of the more well-done gypsy dance shows, the level of athleticism,
grace and execution of many intricate steps required to perform those dances
earns my
On a more personal level, if my husband, who is a big fan, is watching one of their shows, he's not out spending money, which leaves more money for me to spend shopping, even at the non-historical vendor booths. <knowing nod> Laura,
Dancing at Ren faire And we don't want to interfere with shopping!! ;-)
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